Government of Canada | Gouvernement du Canada
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Test of Time - Discussion
Comments for period July 20 - 22, 2009

Disclaimer

All comments have been posted in the official language in which they were submitted. All identifying information has been removed except the user name under which the comments were submitted.


Comment

eye.zak [2009-07-22 21:59] Comment ID: 565

To withstand the test of time it is essential that our copyright law not make any reference to specific technologies (mp3, DRM, Internet). Instead, refer to concepts such as technical protection measures, consider content creators (not musicians, artists, photographers, etc) and content consumers; and actions such as creating derivative works or remixes and sharing of content for specific purposes. Also, it should clearly separate commercial and non-commercial uses of content because the purpose of those uses are significantly different.

I would like Canadians to consider that in 10 years, 3D printing technology should be widely available. When it is will be dealing with issues of pirated designs and the rights of consumers to significantly customise hardware which they have purchased by modifying designs to suit their purpose. I know we're only beginning to see the concept of customised software, but it is more prevalent than most people realise.
While jailbreaking the iPhone is probably the most well known, you should know that many off-the-shelf mp3 players are capable of running an open source operating system that allows the device owner to significantly augment the capabilities of their device, and customise its behaviour accordingly (www.rockbox.org). It has allowed people to customise their device to support 30 languages and even a spoken interface for the visually challenged or hands-free operation.

Copyright law should ensure that the owner of a device has the right to use, reuse and remix their devices. If Steve Jobs and Stephen Wozniak could not customise hardware which they owned, there never would have been an Apple computer.

It should also ensure that consumers have the right to reverse-engineer or modify their devices for interoperability, so that they may use their devices for novel and ingenious purposes because it is in the spirit of creation and innovation for individuals to imagine new uses for their devices and modify them to achieve that purpose.

I know I went into innovation and creativity, but these questions are very interdependent.

Response(s)

gredo [2009-07-27 22:54] Comment ID: 1022 Reply to: 565

As a writer of manuals, I know this to be an absolute fact. If you dive to deeply into developing technology, your work will quickly become useless. If anything, small amendments should be considered only for the existing copyright laws and they should be debated extensively. A massive change is a very bad idea.

Comment

Roger [2009-07-22 17:31] Comment ID: 493

DRM used to lock purchased media/content should illegal. Aside from confusing restrictions to users, usage of these draconian systems have violated personal property and computer security (sony root kit)

Additionally as these technologies are abandoned, (yahoo music, msn music), we run the risk of losing access to that music. I can still play a record… I might not be able to always play a DRM'd song.

Comment

Styledriver [2009-07-22 13:52] Comment ID: 428

Are the responses in this forum really going to be considered?

How are the information and recommendations given here being saved and prepared?

How will our comments be presented when the time comes for officials to make decisions and create law?

What balance of requests from individual canadians versus industry and big players will there be in decision making?

Response(s)

cdnmkt [2009-07-27 18:32] Comment ID: 998 Reply to: 428

I agree. In the past comments from citizens are underweighted (CRTC for example) while corporate interests are overweight in the eyes of our representatives. I expect the decision has already been made by the legislation proposed to date (by both major parties) in parliament. While the rights of persons to earn an honest living from their work must be protected, we continue to expand copyright to cover each distribution medium and not the thoughts, ideas, expressions, and inspirations that copyright was intended to protect.

I expect this issue is too complex to explain in a sound byte to most Canadians, so our comments are likely to be reduced down to a couple short sentences. I hope I am proved wrong…

gredo [2009-07-27 22:48] Comment ID: 1020 Reply to: 998

Sadly, since we do little when walked on, there will be no help to this.

The minister will gloat that the poured over this information and then tell us what was already decided months ago.

Comment

JeffM [2009-07-22 11:32] Comment ID: 397

In order for the laws to withstand the test of time you need to come up with laws that are less restrictive to the end-users (unlike Bill C-61). Make the bill friendly to people who will be editing and remixing new content for the web. People are also converting formats of their content to work with different devices and some of that content is going to be DRM'd. I think commercial use is the only place copyright belongs. Copyright laws for individuals either don't work (Internet file-sharing) or they restrict users choice (not be able to convert things that have DRM).

Comment

mheartwood [2009-07-22 00:12] Comment ID: 350

Despite the speed at which technology has changed, I don't see any real reason copyright needs to dramatically change. The principles of copyright should always have been the same, ever since copyright was created.

There are three principles I see for copyright, "personal use", "publication and distribution", and "fair dealling". If we define these in technologically agnostic terms, we won't need to worry about updating the copyright law the next time something new comes out.

For "personal use", anything I do for myself, such as ripping a song from a CD so I can play it on my iPod, or transcribing an entire poem from a book so I can carry the words around with me, should be allowed. To misquote a former prime minister "the government has no place in the bedrooms and pockets of the nation". What I do in the privacy of my own home with materials I have purchased is my business and no one elses.

For "publication and distribution", anything that will place an unauthorized copy of the work as a whole or a substantial part in to the posession of another person, should not be allowed. This means I wouldn't be allowed to rip that new DVD so my friend could have a copy. While a lot of people do this, it's clearly unacceptable.

But fair dealing is a different and difficult matter. It has always been a grey zone and probably should remain this way. I recognize that law makers don't like grey areas (but if you've ever painted a modern cityscape with lots of concrete, you'll see there are lots of grey areas).

Artists and innovators derive inspiration from other artists and innovators. In many ways, all art and all innovation is derivative. It has a starting point from which it is derived. One creates something, and that inspires the next one to take the idea, transform it in some manner, and make something new from it. This is how a great deal of art and innovation is created. To reduce fair dealing would be to limit creativity and innovation. This is something we must allow to happen.

Schools, especially colleges and universities, are places where a large number of individuals will be inspired by the works of past creators in order to make something new. It is importnat that fair dealing be expanded to cover this properly. Of course, not every student will end up being an artist or an innovator but I think we should encourage them in this direction instead of discouraging them through prohibative laws.

But what degree of compensation should a copyright holder have? If I, the creator of something, decide to publish it in a public location, such as the internet, then through fair dealing, others should be allowed to create derivative works of it. But to copy it lock, stock, and barrel, without permission, is not fair dealing, it's plagerism. By publishing the original in a public place, should I be compensated against the plagerism to the same degree as if I had published the same work through a private sales channel (e.g. book, CD, DVD, etc.)? Also, if my work was published in a public place without my permission, should I not be compensated more by the courts than if my work was published without my permission through a prive sales channel?

Notice I said "public location, such as the internet". The internet may be new technology, but conceptually, it need not be new at all. This is what I mean by a technologically agnostic view.

Where copyright law has gotten complicated is in that we made it to allow acts which were technically, against the principles of copyright. Audio tapes allowed people to make copies of their vinyl records so that could listen to them in the car stereo and in their walkmans, both valid personal use items. It was when we started charging more for audio tapes because we recognized that people were making copies for their friends and families that we started down a slippery slope. In effect, we said it was allright to copy/publish and distribute to certain others. New technologies have only dragged us further down this slope. In order to save copyright for the future, we may need to go back to the first principles and start over.

Response(s)

Qybix [2009-07-22 20:33] Comment ID: 545 Reply to: 350

Very good. Well thought out, and very beautifully worded. Bravo.

yngnstclair [2009-07-22 22:43] Comment ID: 574 Reply to: 350

I agree almost completely with your comment. The only small addition that I would make is;

- A prohibition on Technical Protection Measures (TPMs or DRM) that technologically prevent what copyright explicitly allows. For example, I am technically prevented from copying a DVD (restrictions built into my computer) but I am allowed under "fair dealing" to make backup copies for my own personal use. Breaking a TPM should not be illegal if the end product is not a violation of copyright.

pbaracos [2009-08-05 16:41] Comment ID: 1353 Reply to: 350

To misquote a former prime minister, I would say that "the government has no place in the personal communications of the nation". If it's OK to copy information for your own use, then it is OK to share that information freely in private communication. Sure the government should have a say when money changes hands, governments have always regulated business, but restricting communication between citizens is awfully far down the slippery slope!

Comment

dlitz [2009-07-21 21:55] Comment ID: 317

A copyright regime that "withstands the test of time" must not follow the approach used in C-61, where broad prohibitions were accompanied by an extremely narrow list of exceptions. Doing so effectively would require legislators to imagine every possible scenario where it would be desirable to deem non-infringement.

What good is a law that protects the rights of citizens on steam locomotives, once people travel by car, bus, or airplane?

Response(s)

cjskahn [2009-07-21 23:41] Comment ID: 340 Reply to: 317

I agree. The law needs to be robust and flexible in its protections of Canadians rights. The law's restrictions, such as anti-circumvention measures, should not trump fair dealings or any of our other rights.

I think the government needs to take a long hard look at the American experience with their copyright law, and the DMCA, and all the grief and trouble and drawn out legal campaigns, and figure out how to learn from that experience. We do not want any of that crap going on in our country.

Comment

mlines [2009-07-21 18:55] Comment ID: 294

Balance is needed. Copyright law should be based on a fair evaluation of competing interests. That evaluation should be based on independent research, and not on the verifiably distorted numbers and messages put forward by industry and other interested parties, such as the RIAA and lobbyists.

Comment

shep [2009-07-21 18:16] Comment ID: 276

The less restrictive the legislation to consumers, the longer it will 'withstand the test of time'. Only if legislation does not sufficiently allow for legal uses of copyrighted content, even through means which might be technically illegal, will a problem arise. An example of this might be the need to break a 'digital lock' (should that become illegal) to play a legally acquired retail DVD on a computer running linux. Consumers must be able to access their content however and whenever they wish in order for a digital economy to thrive. We can not give foreign corporations the power to dictate to Canadians how to access content. Only a protectionist agenda will have to be constantly adjusted and re-adjusted over the years to 'keep up with technology'. An approach which holds the sharing of culture and information above all else can last forever. The storage space of hard drives, the bandwidth of internet connections, the speed of computers are all irrelevant in this regard.

Comment

Styledriver [2009-07-21 17:08] Comment ID: 245

First, copyright law based on Canadian values would be non protectionist and would strike a balance between the creators' rights to make a living off their work and the general public's rights to use and enjoy that work.

Second, copyright law should meet today's practices and business needs before worrying about tomorrow's potential. The law should be nimble and easily updatable by the Canadian groundswell, kinda like being in a perpetual beta state.

My $0.02

Response(s)

cjskahn [2009-07-21 23:45] Comment ID: 343 Reply to: 245

I agree. We want to protect creators, authors, artists, etc. We care about ensuring they can make a living off their work, not that the some foreign-owned corporation can be making millions off of it.

Comment

Ryoung [2009-07-21 15:16] Comment ID: 219

On a more comical note, Copyright Law should be "simple" enough so that our prime minister can understand them.

Here's an example where Obama could have breached DRM laws when giving an iPod as a gift to the Queen of England.
http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/04/first-sale-president-obama-and-queen-england

And here's another with Obama being foiled by region lock when giving 25 dvd to Gordon Brown.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mandrake/5011941/Gordon-Brown-is-frustrated-by-Psycho-in-No-10.html

You know there is a problem when the president of the country and all his advisors couldn't figure those out. How can you expect the regular citizens out there to do any better!

Response(s)

cndcitizen [2009-07-21 15:32] Comment ID: 221 Reply to: 219

Thanks Ryoung….brought smiles to many I am sure.

Comment

VancouverDave [2009-07-21 10:22] Comment ID: 167

Copyright has expanded throughout the world to become something far larger than was reasonably intended. The expansion appears to be radiating from the US, where, each time Disney's creations approach the end of their copyright lifetime, the period of coverage is extended by another quarter-century. This expansion problem has now extended, via American music and film producers' associations to Canada.

The purpose of copyright is to encourage innovation by providing a period of exclusivity to a work's creator in much the same way that patents do for physical products, but the constant lengthening of the covered period serves chiefly to prevent any expansion upon existing works during the lifespan of the creator and any of his/her offspring.

I submit that a copyright system to match the patent regime of 17 years would be quite sufficient to encourage innovation and permit payment for the creator's effort. This would allow for a more reasonable time of entry into public domain than currently exists and would harmonize the administration of physical and artistic innovation protection.

Response(s)

rinzertanz [2009-07-21 15:37] Comment ID: 224 Reply to: 167

Don't agree.

As a successful multi-disciplined mid-career Canadian artist I am WELL AWARE that the 'value' of my artwork will likely occur after I'm dead. It is my desire that my appointed trustees manage my assets as I wish.

Perhaps the 'limitation' you describe should differentiate between 'individual artists' and profit-oriented mega-entertainment corporations with deep legal pockets … .

phillipsjk [2009-07-23 21:14] Comment ID: 714 Reply to: 224

I fail to understand the benefit.

If I have enough money when I die, I am temped to have my estate write a book (or series of books if the first does well) posthumously. Because the author would be an employee, my estate would get the copyright, NOT the original author.

rinzertanz [2009-07-23 21:59] Comment ID: 717 Reply to: 714

Yes, that's right. You're dead.

But BEFORE you died, you created the legal entity to protect your assets from 'unauthorized' use and/or disbursement. Your Will, and directive, to your estate is that they produce your books, retain copyright within the estate, and likewise use the proceeds from your works as you have authorized before you died.

If you've got a good set of trustees they'll conform to your wishes, if you don't, well, you're dead. Tant pis.

sjbrown [2009-07-21 16:16] Comment ID: 233 Reply to: 167

VancouverDave, I think your approach of looking at the origns of copyright law is critical. People have to stop just assuming that copyright is a natural fact of life. Copyright law is itself an invented technology, and one of the few "positive rights" enshrined in law.

Positive rights, ("you have to relinquish something to me") as opposed to negative rights ("you can't make me do something"), will always be controversial and never supported by people who live by strict Libertarian or Classical Liberal (Locke, not Ignatieff) principles. These Libertarians and Classical Liberals should not be cast to the side when legislation is being considered.

Comment

JeffLewis [2009-07-21 06:01] Comment ID: 151

Laws should not be written to 'stand the test of time'. The reasons for laws change over time and it's almost impossible to predict what new technology might come into existence.

It's far more useful to determine the underlying principles of a law or legal framework and regularly revisit laws to ensure they support those principles.

In the case of copyrights, the original principle was to encourage the creation of new works by providing a means for creators to use their creations as a monopoly to generate revenue for a limited time. The reason for limited time and control was expressly to counterbalance the monopoly aspect: you couldn't rest on your laurels.

Our current laws already tread heavily on these principles. We don't really need to go even farther from this ideal.

Response(s)

aclausen [2009-07-21 12:01] Comment ID: 186 Reply to: 151

I tend to agree here. No law should be written simply to stand the test of time. Laws inevitably will change and circumstances change.

The fact of the matter is that technology has advanced to the point where music and video can be copied with great fidelity for an indefinite number of times. Attempts to restrict that, such as DRM, end up creating a layer of complexity which can make the experience much less enjoyable for the consumer, while ultimately doing little or nothing to interfere with piracy (for instance DVD encryption keys are broken within days or weeks of release).

I'm not sure what the ultimate answer is. All I know is that the existing business model for media companies, which has essentially persisted since the beginning of the 20th century, is essentially at odds with modern technology. When the means of distribution and the costs of reproduction were very high, you could create businesses based upon those economic controls of product. By the 1970s the average consumer could afford reproduction equipment that could copy records and tapes with reasonable fidelity, and by the 1990s digital technologies created relatively lossless digital formats that could reproduce with excellent fidelity.

The reality is that for most of human history, we have had no copyright laws of any kind. It's quite possible that the age of copyright, which effectively started in Elizabethan England, may indeed be ending.

It's important to point out that this is not without antecedent. The invention of the printing press pretty much brought to an end the ancient job of the scribes, which had survived in one form or another since the time of the Sumerians. In Medieval times and right back to the dawn of recorded history, written documents could be controlled because only a specialized literate class effectively made copies. Whether it was Egyptian scribes or 12th century monks or court recorders, there was a built-in bottle neck. The invention of the printing press ended that bottleneck, allowing anyone with sufficient capital to build or buy a press the capability of making many copies of the same work, and there were typesetters that were quite willing to take the works of others and make unauthorized copies. Despite this, the benefits to society were so great, that the delirious effects were tolerable.

The same must be said of new digital technologies. Yes they will ultimately cause harm to the media industry *as it now stands*. There are clearly delirious effects to the widespread capability to copy and distribute audio, video and text. But there are also enormous benefits.

Copyright was always about compromise between the right of creators to benefit from their work, and the right of the greater society to access that work. What we've seen is a degradation of the latter, where copyright no longer is about compromise, but rather about perpetual protection of intellectual creations.

Comment

wkaram [2009-07-21 00:52] Comment ID: 118

While this web site could use some sprucing up, I commend the government for moving further into the digital age with a more interactive web presence for the consulation. Hopefully it's just the start of more things like this to come.

Response(s)

rakey2_anotherlawyer [2009-07-21 04:10] Comment ID: 147 Reply to: 118

Here Here.

Now wheather they actually listen to the comments remains to be seen.

Unexploded [2009-07-21 12:06] Comment ID: 188 Reply to: 118

Yes, assuming this isn't just for to have the appearance of soliciting feedback and then going on to attempt to sell us out to the highest bidder again ala http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Prentice

rinzertanz [2009-07-21 15:39] Comment ID: 225 Reply to: 118

Agree on all accounts.

This site sure could use someone who knows what they're doing …

Comment

danielsnider [2009-07-21 00:13] Comment ID: 104

Sharing files will persist indefinitely. While sharing can be unfair to artists, charging for a product with infinite supply is unfair to consumers. The situation is a lose-lose one.

At the moment artists are entitled to money for each copy of their song. But the copying cannot be controlled. Therefore the law enabling their entitlement is useless. At the same time customers can not do what they deserve with their product.

Because no copyright law can stop file sharing, attempting to stop it is futile. Copyright should protect tangible threats. Such as imitation, public use without permission (excluding education), etc.

Instead, let the consumer win. Let them share files. Unreasonable CD prices will fall. Culture will spread. I promote compensation threw tariffs. And let the percentage demand dictate the artists share of compensation.

Files -cannot- be controlled. Copyrights should not try. Or we'll be back here again. Time will show the inevitability of file sharing.

Response(s)

douglass [2009-07-21 15:34] Comment ID: 222 Reply to: 104

On a related note, a frustrating conversation I've had several times surrounds the fact that file sharing is inherently near impossible to stop.

Regardless of the right or wrong of the matter, from a purely technical standpoint, there is no reasonable way to stop file sharing (and by unreasonable in this case I mean things like taking away everyone's computers). The current effort that file sharing networks take to hide themselves and their content is near non-existent compared to what is possible. If there was real pressure for the networks to be sneaky it could move to a whole different level than what is happening now.

An unenforceable law is worse than no law at all since all it would do is waste resources.

eye.zak [2009-07-21 20:28] Comment ID: 307 Reply to: 104

danielsnider, you touched on the most important point in this discussion: "a product with infinite supply". As technology advances and 3D printers start to be widely available we will go through the same thing we are now with media and software with physical product designs.
A simple mathematical analysis shows that for proper compensation (fixed compensation for a fixed amount of work) the price of an 'infinite good' (for lack of a better term) should exponentially decay to zero (which should be when the copyright expires). In order to receive damages in any infringement case, content creators should have to prove that they have not received adequate compensation for their fixed investment. So if you worked for a year to produce an album and have made $50,000 off of it so far, you would not receive additional monetary compensation as you have been paid significantly more than the average Canadian makes.

Comment

Kevin [2009-07-20 23:46] Comment ID: 95

They are fine the way they are. This question is slanted to imply that a change is needed in the first place when it is not.

Comment

ReGenesis [2009-07-20 23:32] Comment ID: 88

When we think of what is going to happen in 10, 20 or 30 years, you only have to look at what has already happened in the past 10, 20 or 30 years.

Over time, advancements in technology makes things easier. However, the laws that have been in place for years are sufficient to deal with the same issues.

People have been able to make copies of Music when the cassette tape was created… of Video when the VCR was created… of pictures when the photocopier was created… All 3 technologies were created 30 years ago!

1) Instead of making a mixed tape for a friend, it is now in the form of MP3's that were emailed.

2) Instead of recording a song on the radio with a cassette tape, I can download it from the Internet

3) Instead of recording a a missed TV show with a VCR to watch later, I use my DVR or download it from the Internet.

Technology in the past 30 years has not allowed us to do anything "New" but just do it better and quicker. It is only now that companies want to remove the free use rights we have enjoyed for 30 years by making stricter copyright laws.

Most Canadians take for granted those examples above, and I hope we all will fight to keep our rights.

Response(s)

cndcitizen [2009-07-21 11:10] Comment ID: 177 Reply to: 88

"Technology in the past 30 years has not allowed us to do anything "New" but just do it better and quicker." - Regenisis

So true, we have to look back to the 1978 copyright act and what the "industry" negotiated with the government to allow for the recording devices to be sold in Canada (VCR's and tape decks). I remember the outrage when people were forced to pay an extra tax on new blank media.

This was a short sighted lobbiest that introduced the freedoms we currently have to share our media with friends and port them to new devices and formats. Any regression from these current personal rights will be met with stong resistance.

Don't let industry lobbiest make a mess of Canada like they did in the US.

Comment

Yolanda [2009-07-20 21:44] Comment ID: 70

Je vous répète la même chose; faire valoir nos droits d'auteur au sujet des publications dans le Web

Comment

Nolan [2009-07-20 19:45] Comment ID: 47

Transmission of digital copyrighted media is the main need to update our copyright laws. Artists, creators and owners of copyrighted material need to be reimbursed for the use and acquisition of it. However, the users and appreciators of this material have found that the most affordable and convenient way to acquire the material is often through the illegal downloading of it through the internet.

The convenience and ease of acquiring material like this should not be hindered. In fact it should be further streamlined to increase the efficency of acquiring the digital data.

I believe that to do this, and still have copyright owners reimbursed will require internet service providers to provide subscriptions to media downloading with tiers of service. These subscription fees would then be managed by an organization that would divide them out to registered copyright owners and download sites in need of a commission based on download usage recorded by the registered internet sites.

This system would reduce the possibility of lawsuits by copyright owners, increase competition to provide the media and ensure that users have ease of access to the data.

Response(s)

cndcitizen [2009-07-20 20:49] Comment ID: 57 Reply to: 47

For how long should a copyright holder be reinbursed for commercial use…for private use? Please provide this number…

If an artist placed a picture on the internet for advertising purposes or to showcase their talent then they are putting it in the public domain for personal use. If I want to link to that picture to show someone how good it is then I should be allowed. It only drives eyes to your talent and skills. If I take your picture or whatever and then try and sell it then that depending on what the length of the copyright is on the media would be actionable because it is for commercial use. This could be the same as some patent law protection…if you have something unique, I agree it should be protected under copyright for commercial use but private use is another matter…

Look at media, if I took a picture of a famous painting like salvatory or something, then I could print it and put it in my house because the copyright has been exhausted….I agree with Jake Daynes that the whole 50+ years after artist death is BS and definately needs to go.

rinzertanz [2009-07-21 15:45] Comment ID: 226 Reply to: 57

Don't agree.
Let's say you privately share a file with someone, then that someone privately shares a file with someone else who then goes on to 'commercialize' that information … The Orignal artist will never see a dime.

Also, I DO want control of my Estate after I'm dead. It is my legacy, my wish, my gift to those who follow …

Nolan [2009-07-21 18:11] Comment ID: 275 Reply to: 226

Using a subscription basis and download counts as a means of measuring for private use should provide a quite accurate ratio for which to divide funds. I'm sure there would be many bumps to iron out, but I do see it as a workable solution to current policy.

As for private sharing of files leading to inaccurate counts, I can't see this being a large issue as long as this file is just as easy, or easier to retrieve online. It is probably easier and more convienient to direct someone to the location of a file than it is to give it to them yourself.

This system though would be only for private use. Any commercial use of a product under copyright should still be subject to pay for royalties.

Comment

JakeDaynes [2009-07-20 18:42] Comment ID: 40

In regards to updating our copyright legislation, what is needed is not stricter copyright guidelines, as they have already been proven ineffective.

Canadians do not want DRM, or the act of backing up their CDs criminalized, we want better access to our culture, and material that should rightly belong in the public domain.

I ask you this, when current copyright legislation is at "life of the author plus 70 years", who does this benefit, certainly not the author, for money doesn't matter 70 years after one has passed on.

No, it benefits only the media corporations, what gives anybody a right to say that they own a part of our heritage, a part of our culture, even a year after the author, for whom copyright legislation was created to protect, has died?

You, employees of the Government of Canada, are civil servants, you are elected to help serve us, the citizens as best you can.

"Laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind."
Sir Francis Bacon

Times are changing, the industry needs to adapt to suit such changes, not cling to ways that were obsolete a hundred years ago.

--
Jake Daynes
Marketing and Media
Proud Member of the Pirate Party of Canada

Response(s)

ReGenesis [2009-07-20 23:13] Comment ID: 84 Reply to: 40

I agree completely. The point of copyright is to allow the creator of a work the ability to collect money from their work before it is copied and used else ware.

And use else ware means fall into the public domain.

Why does the creator need to be protected for 70 years after death? What other job can you get where not only you, but your children, and grandchildren and great grand children can continue to benefit from your work? How does a life plus 70 help anyone who is not a corporation?

The public domain is important. Not only to be able to freely read and listen to music from this century, but to foster new ideas and creation.

Have you ever seen another cartoon with a talking Mouse in it that was not done by Disney? Didn't think so…

JakeDaynes [2009-07-20 23:23] Comment ID: 86 Reply to: 84

Just a quick note:

A) point of copyright was originally intended ONLY to provide the right of authorship, meaning, only proof that they were the original artist, secondary to that, an amendment added later, was the ability to be protected from commercial copying.

B) Speedy Gonzales :P

ReGenesis [2009-07-20 23:39] Comment ID: 90 Reply to: 86

Touché!

JakeDaynes [2009-07-20 23:46] Comment ID: 94 Reply to: 90

Also, if anybody would like to get in touch with me outside of this board, to discuss copyright, politics or other, im available at PublicRelations@piratepartyofcanada.com

danielsnider [2009-07-20 23:25] Comment ID: 87 Reply to: 40

I agree. Especially the music and movie industry has to adapt as all other markets do when times change.

rinzertanz [2009-07-21 15:49] Comment ID: 228 Reply to: 40

You are OBVIOUSLY not an originator of ORIGINAL work.

gaylordmenendez [2009-07-21 16:15] Comment ID: 232 Reply to: 40

I agree. But rather than move forward, we should go back to the way it was in 1790. Copyright should last a MAXIMUM 28 years. (14 years with an option to renew ONCE for another 14 years).

28 years is fair and reasonable… Lifetime plus 70 years is ridiculous.

Comment

graham [2009-07-20 17:25] Comment ID: 34

I agree with many of the statements below on digital protection measures.

It is clear that any legislation that is going to "stand the test of time" will need to limit the time for copyright and allow for these protection measures to be bypassed for legitimate fair uses.

The Canadian Federation of Students has a statement that includes a position on Digital Rights Management that I strongly agree with. It states that:

The danger of over-broad anti-circumvention legislation (such as the DMCA in the US) is that, while it may have some minor effect on commercial piracy, it can also prevent otherwise lawful activity such as fair dealing, accessing works in the public domain, archival preservation, time and format shifting, device interoperability and library lending. We should reject DMCA style amendments.

Any effort to address the issue of circumvention/anti-circumvention must not limit the ability of users to by-pass measures that undermine personal privacy or statutory rights of access.

In particular, the Copyright Act must not prohibit devices capable of circumventing the protection measures, as such devices are often used for purposes that do not infringe copyright.

Comment

randy [2009-07-20 17:03] Comment ID: 31

Any legislation that "stands the test of time" must reject the notion that I am leasing the work until the copyright holder changes their format. We must own the work for personal use and be allowed to duplicate and change formats for new devices and backup purposes without fear of breaking laws.

The preamble illustrates how quickly technology changes. To have laws protecting DRM and "digital locks" ignores this reality. One need not make up far fetched stories about consumers purchasing incomparable locks from the same provider! Case in point is Microsoft's "Plays for sure" technology which applies to music files (amongst other media).

One might assume that the Microsoft Zune would play the "Plays for Sure" music by Microsoft, but it does not. Microsoft's Zune works only with its own content service called Zune Marketplace. Such corporate doublespeak and trickery could result in consumers being confused about what to buy, then legally unable to listen to the music they purchased on the devices they own.

Any law that stands the test of time must ensure we have the right to "crack" such locks for personal use so that content we purchased need not be subject to planned obsolescence. To enshrine the lockmaker's rights above personal use makes a mockery of copyright.

Comment

davecb [2009-07-20 16:43] Comment ID: 27

We need to ensure the principles of copyright are applied to new technologies, not merely addressing at ease of copying, it's ability to ease broad distribution, but also the unreliability and rapid obsolescence of the individual technologies.

In particular, granting legal protection to particular protection schemes can leave customers without the books they bought when the author of the technology goes out of business, suffers from a technical problem or simply decides to breach the sales agreement.

The latter appears to have just happened in the United States: copies of "1984" and "Animal Farm" purchased for a hand-held book reader were removed from their readers by the bookseller.

That they deleted these particular titles was more than a little ironic.

Response(s)

KickingRaven [2009-07-20 17:38] Comment ID: 38 Reply to: 27

What was also telling is that those works are in the public domain in other countries, such as Canada, but the copyright term in the US is until 2044.

phillipsjk [2009-07-24 00:34] Comment ID: 730 Reply to: 27

Why have you used such a specific example without mentioning the Trademarks in question?

Retailer: Amazon.com
Product: Kindle e-book readers
Publisher: Unknown. Apparently the publication was unauthorized (and still under copyright) in the US.

cndcitizen [2009-07-24 01:06] Comment ID: 733 Reply to: 730

No longer copyrighted in the rest of the world…Amazon messed up. It should have only tagerted the extended copyright of their US base and not the rest of the world.

davecb [2009-07-24 08:25] Comment ID: 758 Reply to: 730

Literally why? Because it's just an example
of one particular down-side risk, and an
ironic one at that.

Comment

sjbrown [2009-07-20 16:41] Comment ID: 26

Let's look at 1998. In 1998, the US passed the DMCA and the Copyright Extension Act at the behest of large media corporations. The results since then have been the outlawing technical speech on certain topics, restricting fair use, putting Dmitry Sklyarov in prison, and shaking down families for tens of thousands of dollars.

All because media companies didn't want to adapt to new technology or invest in new business models. Meanwhile private citizens rode the wave of innovation and we have witnessed the rise of the independent recording artist empowered by the global reach of the internet and social networking sites. Independent films and television are now finding audiences on YouTube, Miro, and Hulu. Even some large companies have been smart enough to abandon the monopoly-on-information business model and moved to subscription or ad-based models.

Even the music corporations have started to see the bright opportunities of the market - Amazon and iTunes now offer the DRM-free music downloads customers have been asking for.

Any legislation that "stands the test of time" must reject the notion that what I do with the media I purchased for personal use can be regulated. Thus, the law will reflect the reality and everyone's moral instinct. The forces of the market will ensure creators get compensated.

Comment

amueller [2009-07-20 15:15] Comment ID: 20

The most important aspect to consider when looking at copyright and "the test of time" is whether we will still be able to use and access our 'media' in 10 years if we let copyright holders lock-down our legally purchased media with "DRM" or digital rights management tools and locks.

If I buy some media today, with a DRM lock on it, that requires the company to provide an online server that "authenticates" my rights to utilize this media, and that company goes out of business (which seems to be very likely looking at the trends of today), then how do I legally access my media?

Allowing companies and copyright holders to "trump" any other rights (as laid out in Bill C-61), would prevent citizens and consumers from ever accessing their media if a company puts a Digital Lock on their materials and then does not survive.

There must be legal avenues available to consumers to bypass DRM locks in 10 years if companies and rights holders no longer exist.

What happens when I need to shift my media to a new format (for when the new DVD's come out?) Or what happens if my new car has a new competing format for playing music, how can I transfer my legally paid for music to this new format?

DRM is a short-sighted and un-balanced way to deal with copyright. It is extremly unfair, undemocratic, and undermines the "rights" granted consumers through these copyright laws.

Response(s)

KickingRaven [2009-07-20 17:31] Comment ID: 36 Reply to: 20

A complete ban of DRM is preferred, let consumers and market forces dictate the worthiness of the content to withstand the test of time.

Allow consumers the freedom to shift content to accommodate future media formats (non-commercially) and you will be much more effective in ensuring content can withstand the test of time.

Corporations would rather have you pay for every media format shift, how does this benefit the consumer? This approach is counter-productive as consumers are quickly becoming unwilling to pay multiple times for basically the same content on different media formats. The time between media format shifts is becoming shorter and consumers should not be penalized by this.

DRM, in no shape and form, is in the best interests of the public domain.

rakey [2009-07-20 20:59] Comment ID: 58 Reply to: 36

DRM is a bad solution to a VALID issue.

There needs to be a better way to protect artists' works while allowing those who LEGITIMATELY paid for the content to use it however they prefer as long as they are not sharing it (e.g. transferring it to) their friends. You purchasing a song or an image, for example, should not give you the right to give it out to whomever you please.

I speak NOT as a corporation or big conglomerate, but as an artist and a photographer.

Any "free reign" policy will do exactly the opposite of what most of these torrent and internet piracy advocates wish.

It WILL NOT get them free access to content. Rather, it will but those who sell their content will be forced out of business.

We are seeing this in action now with stock photography portals, where one person pays for and downloads my work and then thinks that they have the right to put it up for FREE download for the masses.

ANY effort toward enabling more of this content will not only destroy companies and struggling artists, it will DESTROY Canadian Sovereignty.

So, do not be do tough om DRM and the DMCA. Thanks to the DMCA, I had ground to keep at least 2 offenders, up to this point, from passing out photos they have purchased to just anyone.

CANADIAN GOVERNMENT: PROTECT ARTISTS' RIGHTS! WE DESERVE TO BE PAID FOR USAGE OF OUR WORKS! WE WORK TO CREATE IT!

JakeDaynes [2009-07-20 21:36] Comment ID: 67 Reply to: 58

To begin with, we "Internet Piracy Advocates"(as I do believe that you are referring to groups such as the Pirate Party(of various countries, canada included), do not wish to remove copyright, and are very pro-artist compensation, but not to the point that you are still receiving money 50+ years after your dead. We believe that what society needs is open culture, easily accessible by all.

rakey [2009-07-21 00:34] Comment ID: 113 Reply to: 67

There are plenty of artists who use use their income to further the arts by means of donations, creation of artistic foundations, educational workshops and other such activities.

Taking away our income would take away a part of our culture as well. Be careful you don't cut off your nose to spite your face..

JakeDaynes [2009-07-21 02:43] Comment ID: 136 Reply to: 113

Oh, I am fully aware that there are many artists who give back to the arts, however, I don't believe that there is any reasonable reason for copyrighted material to continue to cost money 50+ years after the creator is dead, especially when 95% of the time there is a corporation or non-artist who has bought the copyright and is making money off of it, when they have no intention of giving any back to the community.

Once again, we are very pro-artist compensation, we are merely advocating that the current distribution model is dead, and that things need to adapt in order to continue as effectively as possible.

rakey [2009-07-21 17:18] Comment ID: 250 Reply to: 136

I agree. You and I are concerned with appreciation and retaining culture. Also, I do agree that 50+ years is draconian. I think 5-10 years is a more sensible period to wait before that work becomes public domain.

rinzertanz [2009-09-09 12:19] Comment ID: 2367 Reply to: 250

… don't you think a 'digital-based' license and/or 'patent' would make more sense vis a vis 'digital photography' like 'Creative Commons'? in that way, on the web, you retain/manage your attributions, and even the 'expiry' date …

In that way, by CLEARLY separating 'digital photogs' from OTHER creations that are done by an artist using their hands that are NOT net or software dependent, non web or software dependent artists can retain/use the existing Copyright Act to protect their work from 'data copying' in the years to come.

aclausen [2009-07-21 17:02] Comment ID: 243 Reply to: 113

Are you saying there was no culture before copyright? This is an odd claim. For the vast and overwhelming majority of the time humans have inhabited this planet, there have been no intellectual property laws of any kind, and yet cultures not only existed, but flourished. Da Vinci and Michaelangelo could produce some of the greatest art in all of history, despite having little or no recourse if some guy down the road decided to make his own copy of the Last Supper or David.

Intellectual property, as I've stated, is a legal fiction. It is a useful fiction, one that, properly balanced, gives a great benefit to society while allowing artists some capacity to profit from their work (thus encouraging them to create more), but this notion that somehow the world will turn dull and grey, song and picture will cease to be because you can't profit from selling your pictures is ludicrous. The history of art and culture the world over shows just how false that claim is.

rakey [2009-07-21 17:13] Comment ID: 249 Reply to: 243

Who said there was no culture before copyright? What I said was, if you take away the artists legal recourse to protect their works, less will be out there. I have heard many an artist say there is no point in creating commercial art if there is no way to protect it.

I did not say none and I did not say i wouldn't post SOME art if copyright did not protect my work. I would simple only post a very small subset. Therefore, no copyright protection, less art for you to use without the artists' permission. Clear now?

aclausen [2009-07-21 17:31] Comment ID: 258 Reply to: 249

I don't think anyone is saying "remove the creator's ability to seek recourse." The issue is somehow claiming that the there will be a paucity of work if copyright law was tilted more towards consumers. Clearly history shows that art is a huge part of the human existence, and that even in the absence of intellectual property protections (or even the notion of intellectual property, let's face it, it's a concept that really is only a little over four centuries old), art will be created.

You seem to have benefited greatly from technologies, but now there's the flipside. This is no different than what happened after the invention of the printing press. The up side was an author could get a thousand copies made very cheaply and quickly, the downside was the printing press down the street could also make a thousand copies of your work very cheaply and quickly.

I have no problem with copyright law, but first we have to properly define terms. "Intellectual property" is not the same as physical property. If I download an unauthorized copy of your work, I have no actually deprived you of any property. I have, potentially, deprived you of some income, but that isn't greatly different from some guy with a camera lining up the same kinds of shots as you do. Would you like the law to ban another photographer from taking a picture of the same sunset you did?

As a would-be writer who hopes to publish some day, I can appreciate your point of view, and to some extent I even share it. But the reality is that technological barriers that offered something of an artificial protection are falling, and in many ways the entire creative landscape is returning to an earlier era.

rakey2_anotherlawyer [2009-07-21 04:22] Comment ID: 148 Reply to: 58

So for you art is a commodity.

For the majority of Canadians art is a personal thing related to culture. It's what makes life worth living.

Personal use vs Commercial use.

I'm all for protecting your moral rights and ensuring companies don't profit from your labour. But I'm against you suing everyone who uses a picture or song to enjoy in their own home for personal use.

If a company uses your work in an advertisement, then sue the company.

I can't afford to pay for all the small pictures my kids print out from the internet, but they deserve to have a personalized room, more than you deserve $ for every time an image gets seen. I do tell my kids not to remix photos into facebook or whatever, but for personal use it's all fair.

That's the difference. Personal use is shared culture. Commercial use makes someone money from your work.

rakey [2009-07-21 17:09] Comment ID: 247 Reply to: 148

First of all, if you want to use my work for your personal use, I expect you to obtain permission to do so. I have been known to give art away and to allow usage when I am asked.

It is those times when I am not asked that I feel there is blatant disregard to the effort put into the work.

If you want a personalized room for your child without considering that maybe I would like to know my work is being used there, maybe YOU should pick up a camera and see why artists want not only to protect their work but to know how it is used and what it takes in the way of technical knowledge, an artistic eye and knowledge of a camera.

Maybe then you would appreciate the art more.

rakey2_anotherlawyer [2009-07-21 18:50] Comment ID: 288 Reply to: 247

You don't get it Rakey.

My kids tastes change every few months and so do the photos they have on the wall. You actually think it's reasonable to track down the owner of each work every time , when often it's just through Google my kids grab the images in the first place and no contact info is available.

and yes I appreciate art, in fact I've posted nearly every photo I've ever taken of vacation spots, etc on flicker and other sites and I don't care who uses them because I have a real job and photography is a hobby that makes me a little money on the side for weddings/etc…

aclausen [2009-07-21 17:10] Comment ID: 248 Reply to: 148

What about Fair Use? If I'm writing a book on photography, and I use one of your photos as an example, should I have to pay a portion of my proceeds? Such a move would essentially destroy artistic criticism.

This is why copyright must never deliver absolute control even to the creator. Society does not benefit from a pure monopoly, even for a limited time.

KLow [2009-07-23 02:53] Comment ID: 614 Reply to: 148

Cool. So if I wanted you to come to my house and do whatever it is you do for a living, just for my personal use, you have no problem doing that for free?

MatthewSherrard [2009-08-15 13:12] Comment ID: 1670 Reply to: 614

Sure, if you can have me do it for no extra effort.

Ryoung [2009-07-23 16:26] Comment ID: 690 Reply to: 148

The issue in this conversation is similar to what I pointed out before. A web page is not a private area.

If I put a picture on the internet it's not like if I put that picture up on my wall at home. It is more equivalent to me putting it in a public park.

In that sense it is acceptable for me to cut out a free magazine and put the picture on my wall. So why shouldn't it be acceptable to print something on the internet and stick it on my wall.

It seems like the internet is perceived as some form of safe place to advertise creative works when it's not. If you put it on the internet it's because you WANT people to download it, print it and do whatever they like with it. The next best thing an artist can do is watermark the pictures with a signature.

I do disagree with the idea of everything being free for personal use. But if I put all my furniture on my front lawn, I don't expect the government to change the law to help me from being robbed just because stealing is illegal.

rinzertanz [2009-08-13 20:23] Comment ID: 1644 Reply to: 148

… hmmmm, a bit of a double standard here, no?

It's not right for people to download your stuff, but you'll let your kids do it cuz, well, they DESERVE it. You SAY that if it's for 'personal use' it's all 'fair'.

And what about the image that your kids 'shared' with someone else who shares it with someone else who then, unbeknownst to them, uses 'the image' in a commercial capacity to 'advertise', 'publicize' or worse, 'remix' it into a derivative image?

Let's up the ante. They used YOUR photo …
Now what?

I ask because the proliferaton of 'unsourced' photos all over the net is common. Who KNOWS where they came from … But for sure some PROFESSIONAL photog isn't even getting a miniscule 'licensing' fee …

You're teaching your kids two things, 1) you don't approve of people using YOUR 'professional' photos without permission/compensation, but 2)they DESERVE to decorate their rooms with OTHER 'no-name' photogs stuff. Those are pretty acutely opposed messages.

cndcitizen [2009-07-21 10:41] Comment ID: 171 Reply to: 58

DMCA doesn't apply in Canada so I gather you are from the US?

rakey [2009-07-21 17:04] Comment ID: 244 Reply to: 171

No I am not. I live in Southwestern Ontario. However, my work is sold and exhibited and known worldwide. I have to protect my work in all areas in which it is exhibited. The two I was referring to were websites in the United States. :)

sjbrown [2009-07-21 16:45] Comment ID: 236 Reply to: 58

rakey, I empathise. I also create copyrighted works, though as a photographer, yours more directly put food on the table. I'd like to understand.

I think that, in the situations you describe, you would currently be protected by existing copyright law and contract law. Could you describe in more detail how the DMCA helped you where existing Canadian copyright law would not have?

rakey [2009-07-21 17:56] Comment ID: 266 Reply to: 236

DMCA helped by shutting down the offending websites that contained my content without my prior permission.

Once that content was removed, the website was allowed back online.

It was that simple.

aclausen [2009-07-21 17:58] Comment ID: 269 Reply to: 266

And what happens tomorrow if I file a fraudulent DMCA take-down against your content? It happens, and while hypothetically I could get in a heapload of trouble, the reality is that such fraudulent takedown notices hardly ever incur penalties.

rakey [2009-07-21 18:17] Comment ID: 277 Reply to: 269

Before I file a complaint, I always screenshot the website for future evidence and I am well versed in DMCA only because I have contracted for American companies.

In my personal case, your fraudulent takedown motion would be responded to with this screenshot, evidence of your fraudulent usage of my content. I keep all digital negatives. so, I guess a court fight would ensue between you and I here I produce my digital negatives as evidence that the content was indeed mine and ket the court decide who's argument had more merit.. I am not afraid to fight in a court of law, as a small business owner, to protect what is mine.

By the way.. You're fighting the wrong guy. You should be fighting the corporations who, instead of just having your site taken down for an hour (or however long it takes you to respond) until you remove my content, are suing you for millions, instead of just having you remove the content to which you had no legal right to repost.

rinzertanz [2009-08-13 20:28] Comment ID: 1645 Reply to: 277

You say, "I keep all digital negatives."
What are those exactly?

Do you mean the 'intially captured' shot you've taken with your digital camera and then transferred to your computer before 'photoshopping' it for sale?

edrowland [2009-07-26 02:53] Comment ID: 914 Reply to: 269

The reality is that there are no penalties for fraudulent take-downs; only damages. So there really is no effective counter to a fraudulent take-down. That should be fixed.

sjbrown [2009-07-21 21:50] Comment ID: 316 Reply to: 266

Ok, I did some googling and I discovered you're probably talking about the "Safe Harbour" provision of the DMCA, which isn't crazy like the anti-circumvention provisions. I think you will have more support if you specify it's the Safe Harbour provision that you enjoy.

FAQ on Safe Harbour provision for others reading along:
http://bit.ly/xu08s

A Canadian version of the Safe Harbour provision could be beneficial. However a Canadian version should better protect against abuse. If I discover documents implicating a corporation in some dastardly deed, and I post them online, should the corporation be able to have my site shut down by citing copyright? If I'm an independent artist and I create a collage work depicting Mickey Mouse, all it takes is one email from Disney to have my ISP immediately shut down my site.

rinzertanz [2009-08-13 20:37] Comment ID: 1646 Reply to: 316

WOuld it be possible for you to post the full link about the FAQ on Safe Harbour provision?

I can't seem to get that bit.ly link you supplied to work …

Thanks.

aclausen [2009-07-21 16:58] Comment ID: 241 Reply to: 58

The DMCA is far too heavily slanted towards content producers, or more to the point, large media companies. As well, it's much too easy for people to make claims to public domain work, or even to the work of others (look at the abuses happening on YouTube, which simply obeys take down notices, a sort of shoot first, ask questions later policy), with too much difficulty to make right on fraudulent claims.

Any changes to copyright legislation must, to be fair, retain reasonable time limits after which works enter the public domain, and must have mechanisms in place to attack those who fraudulently make claims against works for which they have no copyright. If you're going to make life very easy for content producers to go after infringers, then fairness and justice require that fraudsters must just as easily be pursued.

As to DRM, it has been an absolute failure, to the point that it appears that even RIAA down in the States is backing away from it. It does not prevent piracy, and only makes it harder for consumers to use the products they own.

rakey [2009-07-21 18:10] Comment ID: 274 Reply to: 241

Like I said.. Both DRM and the DMCA are bad solutions.

DMCA is bad because it is being abused in the legal system and rewarding WAY more than is merited to those using it in a court of law. I odn't think the creators of the DMCA had the foresight to see how it's effect could be abused by a crooked or unbalanced legal system.

DRM is bad because it does not allow for conversion to new media and devices or copying from devices to one's personal computer.

DMCA is good when it helps the small producer stay afloat.

So there must be some middle-ground that will protect the little guys of the world; both producers and consumers.

New marketing models seem to work (posting smaller resolution images and song snippets for example).

Still copyright needs to address the larger piracy movement while allowing educators and other to use the work while giving credit to the producer or creator.

aclausen [2009-07-21 12:18] Comment ID: 191 Reply to: 20

"DRM is a short-sighted and un-balanced way to deal with copyright. It is extremly unfair, undemocratic, and undermines the "rights" granted consumers through these copyright laws."

Not only that, but it is ineffective against piracy. DRM can be reverse engineered, and usually is. DRM, like all technological lock down measures, inconveniences the average consumer, but does not prevent piracy. Even the most primitive forms of DRM, the infamous Macrovision watermark used to prevent the copying of analog transmissions (many video tapes and TV programs use Macrovision, which sends a signal which copying hardware like VCRs and DVD recorders "see" and then lock out the recording function) is trivially crackable by anyone with even a modest understanding of electronics.

Making harsh copyright legislation that ends up seeing grandmothers and single moms hauled into court to face awards set at tens of thousands of dollars per song isn't going to stop piracy. You're still going to be able to buy knock off DVDs made in China, you're still going to be having anonymous "crackers" making unlocked content available through various means on the Internet.

You cannot take everyone who downloads or shares a song to court. You can try to frighten people with fines and civil awards all out of proportion to the crime. But does that mean you're going to go after every guy that bypasses the DRM on the CD they just bought so they can rip it on to their iPod? You effectively will be turning millions of people into criminals.